Kommentare zu: Rosenthal Josef Samuel – 02. Juni 1937

Von: Chaya-Bathya (Claudia) Markovits

Chaya-Bathya (Claudia) Markovits — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:12:33 +0000

Es ist anzunehmen, daß der Verstorbene “Awrech” hauptsächlich deshalb genannt wird, weil er Josef hieß und in nicht sehr hohem Alter starb. Über Josef heißt es ja: וַיַּרְכֵּב אוֹתוֹ בְּמֶרְכֶּבֶת הַמִּשְׁנֶה אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ וַיִּקְרְאוּ לְפָנָיו אַבְרֵךְ.

Das ansonsten unbekannte Wort “Awrech”, das in der Bibel (glaube ich) nur einmal vorkommt, deutet der Midrasch Rabba (Bereschit Rabba 90, 3) übrigens folgendermaßen: אָב בְּחָכְמָה רַךְ בְּשָׁנִים – (Ein Vater [aw] an Weisheit, jung [rach] an Jahren.

Von: Meir Deutsch

Meir Deutsch — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:54:12 +0000

Als Antwort auf Johannes. @Johannes, @Chaya-Batya רטושים = abandoned not torn. See: תלמוד בבלי מסכת בבא מציעא דף לח עמוד ב "ואלו הן נכסי רטושים: הרי שהיה אביו או אחיו או אחד מן המורישין כאן, ואינו יודע להיכן הלכו. - מאי שנא הנך דקרו להו נטושים, ומאי שנא הני דקרו להו רטושים " Where his children = עולליו abandoned? If he had children why was he called אברך ?

Von: Johannes

Johannes — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 05:29:00 +0000

Als Antwort auf Chaya-Bathya (Claudia) Markovits. gefällt mir sehr gut! Ich hab mich da wohl ein wenig verbissen in die Reimform, dachte die ersten beiden Zeilen auf יב und die nächsten beiden auf ים ...

Von: Chaya-Bathya (Claudia) Markovits

Chaya-Bathya (Claudia) Markovits — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 21:56:50 +0000

Koennte das fragliche Wort vielleicht sein: הרטושים?

רטושים = קרועים?

Von: Johannes

Johannes — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 19:52:52 +0000

Als Antwort auf Meir Deutsch. Der Ausschnitt mit der fraglichen Stelle nochmals möglichst kontrastreich und groß:

Von: Meir Deutsch

Meir Deutsch — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 18:45:54 +0000

That is what I could read on the tombstone:
עד הגל הזה על קבר האברך
בן פורת יוסף נקטף באביב
? (?) שנותיו לתוגת עולליו – can anyone figure out this line?
ולעצבת נפש אבותיו המתאבלים
על אובדן פרי חמדתם
From the word אברך we see that he was a Jung fellow – maybe even still single. אביב שנותיו also indicate that he was Jung.
עולליו means his very Jung off springs. Maybe I misread it as it is not very clear.
ולעצבת נפש אבותיו המתאבלים we can deduct that his parents were mourning him. This is also supported by על אבדן פרי חמדתם.

Can it be that his parents were not the ones we think they were? Was there another family Rosenthal? As Carole writes, if he was their son he was no AVRECH = אברך and was not in אביב שנותיו.

Von: Johannes

Johannes — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 15:30:05 +0000

Als Antwort auf Meir Deutsch. @Meir and @Carole, I think you're right. But this means, that our Julia Rosenthal can't be the mother of Josef Samuel!? I've updated it in the text above.

Von: Meir Deutsch

Meir Deutsch — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:32:46 +0000

Something does not work out.
If his mother is Julia, who died on 7th November 1932, how come that on her tombstone her husband, Jacob is already deceased; and on the tombstone of their son, Josef Samuel, who died quite a few years later ( 2nd June 1937 ) his father, Jacob, is still alive?

Von: Carole Vogel

Carole Vogel — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:52:16 +0000

I would not have described him as a young fruit. His parents married in 1855 and the record shows that his mother Julie Rosenthal was the daughter of Jakob Philip from Mattersdorf and Kati from Neudörfl and the father was Jakob Rosenthal from Deutschkreuz. Let’s assume that his mother was 20 when she married. The latest she could have had a child would have been between the ages of 45 and 50 (and that is pushing the biological clock). So the latest Josef could have been born would have been between 1880 and 1885. So by my calculations would be in his early fifties—more like a overripe fruit indeed.